I am not going to come in here trying to convince people of God as I did before. I have come to recognize that all evidence for God that I have is purely subjective; personal experiences that are only good enough for me, and no matter how much personal certainty I have, that is all I will have and I will never be able to spread it. There is no way to prove that God exists and there is no objective evidence. Lack of the ability to disprove is not grounds for an argument as the burden of proof lies on us, the assertors of the concept. Since there is such a lack of proof, I can not, as I previously saw, believe that a good, merciful God could disbelief in Him against people. This is what cracked my Bible-buckle, because if this was so, the Bible must, at least in part be flawed. Somewhere along the way I had forgotten that the Bible was just as much a book written by men as any other book. I have not abandoned my faith because I have had experiences with things I cannot yet explain, but I no longer believe that they, God, or angels are unexplainable. Nor do I believe in anything that is "supernatural" such as a non-physical soul, for how could something non-physical affect something that is physical? I cannot understand that concept. Everything is physical, either in mass, or in energy. I didn't stop believing in God, the Spirit, general spirits and souls, or anything; they just became a lot more real in my eyes. (pun actually meaning that they became more physical) I now follow a spiritual path that is somewhat a mix of the Quaker way of following the Holy Spirit above the written word (if I understand their ways rightly) and a belief, with backing by the Spirit, that I should believe science first and foremost as it is our best way of understanding the objective things of this universe.
That all being out there in the open... I really don't know what else to talk about.
All I can really do is say my beliefs as mentioned I cannot prove God or the Spirit or anything.
I cannot, and won't even, debate the idea that religion does more good on humanity than harm because throughout history it seems to be the case that religion, as a whole, has done more harm than good.
Basically all I can say know is "This is what I believe, it doesn't hurt anybody, and it works for me so I am happy!"
Course some beliefs actually DO hurt people...
EDIT: Just not mine that I am aware of.
All I really believe in is what goes around comes around. I'm not sure whether God exists and if he does, I'm not sure I'm comfortable with someone watching me all the time.
Haine, Kei, Blacky or Rukie
I just say hello at all times but that’s because I’m forgetful and forget what time it is. …and day. …and sometimes the month. I’m always confused at what year it is.
Kanna Kitty owns White Winged Angel :3
pinataheart
Posted:
Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:05 pm
Ultima Weapon
Age: 21
Joined: 16 Apr 2006
Posts: 13261 Karma: 941
Location: Funender Forums, best site in the world
I am not sure what to say about that. I am not sure that God would watch you all the time, but all I can think of is if He did it would only be to give you advice through the Spirit, and to those who don't believe in the Spirit, the advice would come as random inspiration of looking at things in a way that would be for the best benefit, or not at all, if it would be unlikely that you would heed the advice of the Spirit, then I would find no reason that God would watch everyone. Used to I would have added an "Except to protect them." But I feel that God cannot do much to help people directly without shattering free will or making people too dependent on Him to help others on their own. So basically people are on their own for the most part.
I agree that it's good to beleive in something, a higher power, things that are protecting us... As tlong as you don't take it too far or let it control your life. It's your life, live it the way you want to. Besides if someone says what your doing is against God you can say that God created you therefore whatever you do is technically not against him.
Though sometimes I think if there is a God, he's pretty sadistic.
Haine, Kei, Blacky or Rukie
I just say hello at all times but that’s because I’m forgetful and forget what time it is. …and day. …and sometimes the month. I’m always confused at what year it is.
Kanna Kitty owns White Winged Angel :3
pinataheart
Posted:
Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:26 pm
Ultima Weapon
Age: 21
Joined: 16 Apr 2006
Posts: 13261 Karma: 941
Location: Funender Forums, best site in the world
He isn't the powerhouse that smites or blesses people with great might.
If God were truly filled with love, he would have wanted to create something to love.
If God wanted something to love, He would undoubtedly want something that loved him back, and what is loving someone back if they don't have the choice to deny that? Therefore free will was needed to create (from what was already there, not poof from nothing) beings to love God back by choice instead of by natures as animals do.
With free will brings pain and agony brought upon us by ourselves. Though this is not exclusively the source of pain and agony (natural disasters can cause much pain and agony but that could be due to the system that had to be in place to create the type of universe that could house free willed beings, who is to say?), human made suffering, I do believe, is the largest amount of suffering in the world. War, prejudice, hate, all these aweful things are due to human choice.
This is the basis of what I believe, it may not be absolutely true and I could be wrong entirely. God could be a metaphor and free will could be imaginary, as my psych advisor believes it is.
Like I said before, all I can say about them is that they work for me and they don't hurt anybody.
Then what, if you dont have a religion, helps you get throught times when your in doubt? To me a religion is a way of spreading hope to those with no path. I personally dont draw on my faith in god, cause thats slim, but my faith in my family and friends to get me trough the day.
But Im not sure about what you mean bye faith. I looked it up and got a few meanings
1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.
Which form of faith are you looking for or already have?
pinataheart
Posted:
Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:09 am
Ultima Weapon
Age: 21
Joined: 16 Apr 2006
Posts: 13261 Karma: 941
Location: Funender Forums, best site in the world
Then what, if you dont have a religion, helps you get throught times when your in doubt? To me a religion is a way of spreading hope to those with no path. I personally dont draw on my faith in god, cause thats slim, but my faith in my family and friends to get me trough the day.
But Im not sure about what you mean bye faith. I looked it up and got a few meanings
1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.
Which form of faith are you looking for or already have?
Eh?
You talking to me or to T-Rex?
Cuz I have a religion, it is just a majorly re-vamped, scienced-up version of Christianity that allows me to borrow from other beliefs as the Spirit ans science tells me I can. ^_^
When I am in doubt I do believe in a paradise after death and I believe in advice, though not a direct interference, from the Spirit.
I am not sure that God would watch you all the time, but all I can think of is if He did it would only be to give you advice through the Spirit, and to those who don't believe in the Spirit, the advice would come as random inspiration of looking at things in a way that would be for the best benefit, or not at all, if it would be unlikely that you would heed the advice of the Spirit, then I would find no reason that God would watch everyone. Used to I would have added an "Except to protect them." But I feel that God cannot do much to help people directly without shattering free will or making people too dependent on Him to help others on their own. So basically people are on their own for the most part.
According to the Bible, God is omnipotent, so if he's everywhere, then he must be watching you, and if he's watching you, then he's watching you ALL the time. But it also says in the Bible that God is omniscient, which would mean that he knew everything, so if he did, then he knows what we're going to do before we do it. So what's the point of being everywhere if he knows what we're going to do? Or if he doesn't, then the Bible is wrong and God becomes that much weaker, which also begs the question of what else could be wrong. Sorry if i'm raining on your parade, but that's another thing that bugs me about religion. Because there's no set interpretation of the Bible, people twist it to better suit their view point and make themselves feel better. People find all sorts of ways to twist the Bible, but they're really just lying to themselves, aren't they? You say God isn't watching all the time, that we're responsible for our own actions, while some other God-fearing Christian says otherwise. Who's to say who's right? How can a religion whose followers can't even agree on a correct interpretation of their holy book expect others to believe a word they say? More importantly, how can they go around criticizing other people's religion when they can't even get their own straight?
pinataheart wrote:
With free will brings pain and agony brought upon us by ourselves. Though this is not exclusively the source of pain and agony (natural disasters can cause much pain and agony but that could be due to the system that had to be in place to create the type of universe that could house free willed beings, who is to say?), human made suffering, I do believe, is the largest amount of suffering in the world. War, prejudice, hate, all these aweful things are due to human choice.
See above argument. If God is truly omniscient as the Bible says, then he knows what we're going to do, which means that because he created us, he made us do what we were going to do before we even knew we were going to do it. How is that fair? Or if he doesn't actually know, then the Bible isn't infallible and God isn't omniscient and so on and so on.
<3 Sunny Bunny
Kuro Ryu
Posted:
Wed Jan 06, 2010 5:38 am
Shinra Corp
Age: 20
Joined: 25 Feb 2007
Posts: 5075 Karma: 939
Location: On the front lines liberating people with my music
In my oppinion if there is a god (whichever god it is) and if when i die i go to some other plane of existance and am judged by this god. I think, especially in the case of the christian god, as long as i live a good life, that god will forgive me for not worshipping him at the same time. Because at the end of the day religion isnt about god, its about the way you live your life. religion is there to guide you when you dont know what to do and what choices to make. God and the afterlife were probably put there by whoever wrote (insert holy text here) to encourage people to follow the rules outlined by that text. wether there is a god, hell or heaven is immaterial, the object of the exercise is to get you to live in a way that is seen as 'good' i.e. it's getting you to be a nice person.
this is why religious extremists aggrevate me a lot. because they contradict their own faith so much. Most english and american people consider themselves christian yet hundreds of thousands of them are in the middle east right now killing people. what is one of the ten commandments of christianity? Thou shalt not kill. you cant be christians then because youre ignoring one of the basic tennents of your faith the same goes for muslim 'terrorists' (for lack of a better word) their faith forbids them from killing yet thousands of them are waving weapons around and bombing things. so what does this make all these people then if they arent christians and muslims? nice guys who kill each other.
<- thanks rukie =)
^ Click it to listen to Beneath Hell!
Takeshi Kitano wrote:
Life is a game. So fight for survival and find out if you're worth it.
Murdoc Niccols (Gorillaz) wrote:
"... Full frontal pelvic thrust bass shagging!"
Arc wrote:
HE HAS RISE FROM THE DEAD!
...jesus?o.0
jesus got mad bass playing skills XD
pinataheart
Posted:
Wed Jan 06, 2010 9:34 am
Ultima Weapon
Age: 21
Joined: 16 Apr 2006
Posts: 13261 Karma: 941
Location: Funender Forums, best site in the world
According to the Bible, God is omnipotent, so if he's everywhere, then he must be watching you, and if he's watching you, then he's watching you ALL the time. But it also says in the Bible that God is omniscient, which would mean that he knew everything, so if he did, then he knows what we're going to do before we do it. So what's the point of being everywhere if he knows what we're going to do? Or if he doesn't, then the Bible is wrong and God becomes that much weaker, which also begs the question of what else could be wrong. Sorry if i'm raining on your parade, but that's another thing that bugs me about religion. Because there's no set interpretation of the Bible, people twist it to better suit their view point and make themselves feel better. People find all sorts of ways to twist the Bible, but they're really just lying to themselves, aren't they? You say God isn't watching all the time, that we're responsible for our own actions, while some other God-fearing Christian says otherwise. Who's to say who's right? How can a religion whose followers can't even agree on a correct interpretation of their holy book expect others to believe a word they say? More importantly, how can they go around criticizing other people's religion when they can't even get their own straight?
I am not twisting the Bible, just intentionally completely disregarding all parts of it that go against logic, science, or what the Spirit tells me. The Bible is fallible, science and the Spirit are less fallible, and science is self correcting when it does fail. And of course I believe differently than other Christians because they fail to reconcile that which is in conflict with science, logic, and the Bible's own words.
boqqtzz wrote:
See above argument. If God is truly omniscient as the Bible says, then he knows what we're going to do, which means that because he created us, he made us do what we were going to do before we even knew we were going to do it. How is that fair? Or if he doesn't actually know, then the Bible isn't infallible and God isn't omniscient and so on and so on.
As per my previous comments on the Bible, I said that I now know that it is fallible. It can contain errors and I believe that it contains many. Therefore I need say no more, only that some of the parts that are assumed are in error.
But even despite that, i don't think that omniscient means what many people tend to think it believes. I believe that God knows all that is knowable; but certain scientific laws make it clear that you cannot truly know the future 100%, therefore it is not knowable and not even someone that is omniscient can know it because it is not knowledge.
Kuro Ryu wrote:
In my oppinion if there is a god (whichever god it is) and if when i die i go to some other plane of existance and am judged by this god. I think, especially in the case of the christian god, as long as i live a good life, that god will forgive me for not worshipping him at the same time. Because at the end of the day religion isnt about god, its about the way you live your life. religion is there to guide you when you dont know what to do and what choices to make. God and the afterlife were probably put there by whoever wrote (insert holy text here) to encourage people to follow the rules outlined by that text. wether there is a god, hell or heaven is immaterial, the object of the exercise is to get you to live in a way that is seen as 'good' i.e. it's getting you to be a nice person.
Agreed. I would even say that it is likely that the same force; the same Deity caused the rise to knowledge in many religions at once because the enlightenment of Jesus and many others came about at a startlingly close time period.
Kuro Ryu wrote:
this is why religious extremists aggrevate me a lot. because they contradict their own faith so much. Most english and american people consider themselves christian yet hundreds of thousands of them are in the middle east right now killing people. what is one of the ten commandments of christianity? Thou shalt not kill. you cant be christians then because youre ignoring one of the basic tennents of your faith the same goes for muslim 'terrorists' (for lack of a better word) their faith forbids them from killing yet thousands of them are waving weapons around and bombing things. so what does this make all these people then if they arent christians and muslims? nice guys who kill each other.
I agree that people who believe that they should be so militant about it are failing to reconcile some flaw in their belief set, but I must point out that "Thou shall not kill" was only intended to be translated as "murder" or to kill innocents, and the word innocent at the time was subjective to whoever the Jewish people thought were innocent. It isn't morally right but that is what it meant.
On the subject of omniscience i believe true omniscience is impossible. I would imagine many people think of time and events in time as a big line from past to present to future. I believe this is incorrect, I think of time as more of a huge web and our timeline is but one path across that web. Ours is but one set of possible event that influence the future. So in short an omniscient being such as god may know every possible future but wont know which one we fit into. I mean this is where things get really weird cos obviously if god were to intervene in our present there is no knowing what other future we may go towards instead, whether it be better or possibly much worse. I dont know if any of this makes any sense cos im trying to describe images in my head and it's all a bit vague so feel free to say "wtf are you talking about kyu"
<- thanks rukie =)
^ Click it to listen to Beneath Hell!
Takeshi Kitano wrote:
Life is a game. So fight for survival and find out if you're worth it.
Murdoc Niccols (Gorillaz) wrote:
"... Full frontal pelvic thrust bass shagging!"
Arc wrote:
HE HAS RISE FROM THE DEAD!
...jesus?o.0
jesus got mad bass playing skills XD
pinataheart
Posted:
Wed Jan 06, 2010 4:16 pm
Ultima Weapon
Age: 21
Joined: 16 Apr 2006
Posts: 13261 Karma: 941
Location: Funender Forums, best site in the world
I understand what you are saying, but that would be a crippling blow to my belief in free will and it would seem to be too constraining for me to believe that we are just stuck on this one track of time and can't pull the lever to get onto a different track.
Heck I don't even like the tracks, I want an ATV of complete freedom and I will then choose to ride on the dirt roads of kindness and goodness towards humanity, or at least I will try, because it rained recently so that road is a little muddy.
thats what i'm saying, because of free will there are many junctions in the timeline of our lives, we make the choices but nobody can know what choice we will make before we make it. Like i say. so back to what boqqtzz was saying god is onmiscient to an extent because he may know all of the choices we might make but now which choice we will make.
This also opens up doors to areas like belief in alternate realities whereby actually when we make choices multiple realities are created for each choice we make to represent each option in that choice. In which case god can be truely omniscient because at each choice we do everything.
for a simple example you have a choice between pizza and chinese tonight for dinner, you actually make both choices and there is a reality reflecting each choice, like i say this gets weird and complicated if we go any further.
<- thanks rukie =)
^ Click it to listen to Beneath Hell!
Takeshi Kitano wrote:
Life is a game. So fight for survival and find out if you're worth it.
Murdoc Niccols (Gorillaz) wrote:
"... Full frontal pelvic thrust bass shagging!"
Arc wrote:
HE HAS RISE FROM THE DEAD!
...jesus?o.0
jesus got mad bass playing skills XD
pinataheart
Posted:
Wed Jan 06, 2010 4:55 pm
Ultima Weapon
Age: 21
Joined: 16 Apr 2006
Posts: 13261 Karma: 941
Location: Funender Forums, best site in the world
I don't like the idea of multiple realities being like that because that means that no matter what I pick I actually picked the other thing in another reality. So there is a fundamentalist christian pinata still posting under the name of endnekind right now in another universe? Teh pinata would want to smack such a person in the face. And would do so without question, it need not even be a choice.
But just because I don't like it doesn't mean it isn't possible. I respect the possibility of it, though I detest the actual implications it would mean. What would be the point of a paradise or a place of punishment? We would all be as evil as we can be, as good as we can be, and the mix of the two all at once, therefore we would all either go to one or another. And which you would get to go? If it is the best you, then that is a massive genocide of all the mixes. Of course that could mean that their is no paradise or punishment place, but that makes the pinata sad, the paradise thing that is, not the punishment place thing: as it is, teh pinata doesn't believe that many people at all go to Hell. But she needs a heaven of sorts. It would be so sad to have been looking forward to a place where finally, finally, my dreams that are completely impossible on this Earth will be fullfilled. I know what some will say, they will think that such thoughts are preventing me from doing things, breaking boundaries in this world. To an extent, that might be true for most, but my dreams are completely impossible in this world and were made that way from birth. I can come close to being a girl on Earth, I can get a sex change and I can even feel like a girl to a very close degree, but I will never ever ever... have a baby like a girl will. And that makes me so agonizingly sad that I probably would go completely insane were it not for the thought that that dream will be reached and achieved in Heaven or the paradise whatever it is to be called.
And despite all that emotional stuff I just said, there is no evidence of such a place. But in the case of multiple universes being like that, I find its existence, or my existence after death, to be extremely improbable even in the case of the existence of God.
And it frustrates me that I cannot say that it is not the case that the universe does that splitting with a choice thing. But I cannot. But we cannot say much about the universe in all honesty; we are trapped within it, all assertions about its grandest of workings will be subjective to our experience within it, now if we were able to be on the outside looking in, it would be different, but we cannot do that.
But yeah, in any case there, God would be knowing all that is knowable. you can know what all peoples choices are, that is very imaginable. It is hard to imagine, however, what choice people are going to make.
Like i say its just some stuff to think about, as you quite rightly pointed out, there is no way to prove or disprove anything that either of us have said, we're just sharing ideas and dwelling on them for too long would be futile becasue in the end no matter how much we think about it or try to reason it out we will almost certainly never know. Its just about finding what sits best with you.
Personally i find my outlook on life to draw heavily on buddhist ideals. I strive to be as good a person as i can, without being gullible and naiive. I dont go out of my way to do anybody harm and i dont dwell on things i cant change and i find myself in a pretty happy place right now...spiritually. The only question i want to answer is my purpose in this world and that will come in time.
<- thanks rukie =)
^ Click it to listen to Beneath Hell!
Takeshi Kitano wrote:
Life is a game. So fight for survival and find out if you're worth it.
Murdoc Niccols (Gorillaz) wrote:
"... Full frontal pelvic thrust bass shagging!"
Arc wrote:
HE HAS RISE FROM THE DEAD!
...jesus?o.0
jesus got mad bass playing skills XD
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
<3 Sunny Bunny
<- thanks rukie =)
