| This is serious but doesn't sound that way...Z-day may be closer
- Goto page Previous 1, 2 |
|
View previous topic :: View next topic |
 Starry-chan |
|
Posted:
Sat Dec 03, 2011 7:28 pm |
Ultima Weapon
Age: 12
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 12,246
Liked Posts: 8
Karma: 1189
Location: Darkness...
Usergroups:
A World of Cultures
In Review
Kindness Counts
9407727 Gil
Items
    
more...
|
|
| pinataheart wrote: |
The media is manipulating people. Not mind control.
The only mentioning of mind control that I made was the ethical implications of controlling and manipulating non-human animals to the degree that using this as a type of technology would be. True, it would be very useful for humans to be able to have better control over animals, but is it ethical to control animals to that degree? |
if their brain is only the chip then it's control but it's not really a bug anymore. If it's just a stimulating chip then it is literally just encouraging a thought pattern. It's not like you can get a joystick and move ti around.
Ethical implications are a little too subjective..I mean, we're talking about insects really. They have more of a ganglia than a brain.
|
Quote of the day: "Evolution has ZERO evidence, otherwise I would have found it by now."
-MalakaiJ from youtube
Pure gold isn't it?
You are Stern the Destructor (星光の殲滅者): Polite, calm and logical...
...But nevertheless extremely dangerous! |
| |
 |
|
| pinataheart |
|
Posted:
Sat Dec 03, 2011 7:47 pm |
Ultima Weapon
Age: 22
Joined: 16 Apr 2006
Posts: 13,354
Liked Posts: 3
Karma: 965
Location: Funender Forums, best site in the world
Usergroups:
A World of Cultures
AWOL
Funender Garden
58569 Gil
Items
    
more...
|
|
| Starry-chan wrote: |
if their brain is only the chip then it's control but it's not really a bug anymore. If it's just a stimulating chip then it is literally just encouraging a thought pattern. It's not like you can get a joystick and move ti around.
Ethical implications are a little too subjective..I mean, we're talking about insects really. They have more of a ganglia than a brain. |
This is true. But I don't think I claimed that I was making any sort of objective statement. In my frame of mind now, I don't think that true objectiveness even exists. I look at things more, now, based on their function and the effect that they have on people.
To many people, animals, even insects, are more than just the sum of their parts. This is how people are effected by animals. Many are desensitized to this, but even those who are desensitized often have moments of feeling empathy for animals, despite scientific "objective" evidence to say that these animals don't have feelings so empathy would be wasted on them. So in this sense, regardless of whether it is "actual" or not, animals have the functional effect of being more than just the sum of their parts. This functional effect way of looking at things is how I now look at the world because it solves the argument of "is this really true or is it not?" by saying,"It doesn't matter, what effect does it have."
|
Like stories about magic? Read Cheeky Demons!
Join Funender Gardens!
| Arc wrote: |
| nah we just know that you are a warm loving person filled with sweet things and happynessXD |
| MoA wrote: |
I've said it once before, and I'll say it again, the world really needs more people like you. |
My FFT chars:
Rikki- Thief
Luna- Ninja
Crazed- Yllw Chocobo
Arc- Blk Chocobo |
| |
|
|
| Starry-chan |
|
Posted:
Sun Dec 04, 2011 1:48 am |
Ultima Weapon
Age: 12
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 12,246
Liked Posts: 8
Karma: 1189
Location: Darkness...
Usergroups:
A World of Cultures
In Review
Kindness Counts
9407727 Gil
Items
more...
|
|
Alright then, at what point from the scale of a human down to self-replicating molecular soups do things begin to have "feelings"? So far I don't see anyone having problems with inserting genetics into unicellular organisms (for controlling).
And I believe mathematics can be a form of ultimate objectivity.
|
Quote of the day: "Evolution has ZERO evidence, otherwise I would have found it by now."
-MalakaiJ from youtube
Pure gold isn't it?
You are Stern the Destructor (星光の殲滅者): Polite, calm and logical...
...But nevertheless extremely dangerous! |
| |
|
|
| mgold07 |
|
Posted:
Sun Dec 04, 2011 3:46 am |
Ragnarok
Age: 17
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 6,891
Liked Posts: 0
Karma: 508
Usergroups:
Forever Night
Magazine Staff
Roleplayers
66458 Gil
| | | Class: | Wizard Knight | | Level: | 12 |
Items
    
more...
|
|
Animal's don't have feelings? I'm sorry, but that is complete and absolute BS,
now, animals granted may not feel emotions in a similar way to us. Their brain is different and their view on the world is different, but to say that animals are completely without feelings is just BS.
|
[quote="Tmnzklan"]no why would i help mgold- we cant go five posts before starting to fight![/quote]
[quote="Wing"]sure, i'll bend them forward, hold a cup of tea and ask if they like today's weather while banging[/quote]
 Le Awesomes <-, Many thanks 
[url=http://www.anime-planet.com/users/mgold07]
Backloggery
http://mgold07.wordpress.com/
Hark...ejaculated. |
| |
|
|
| pinataheart |
|
Posted:
Sun Dec 04, 2011 4:50 am |
Ultima Weapon
Age: 22
Joined: 16 Apr 2006
Posts: 13,354
Liked Posts: 3
Karma: 965
Location: Funender Forums, best site in the world
Usergroups:
A World of Cultures
AWOL
Funender Garden
58569 Gil
Items
more...
|
|
| Starry-chan wrote: |
Alright then, at what point from the scale of a human down to self-replicating molecular soups do things begin to have "feelings"? So far I don't see anyone having problems with inserting genetics into unicellular organisms (for controlling).
And I believe mathematics can be a form of ultimate objectivity. |
I do not know whether animals have "feelings" in "actuality" or not. All I know is the functional effect on human beings that makes most humans treat them as if they have feelings, whether they have them or not. So it can be said that animals have the function of having emotions, whether or not they actually do or not is irrelevant, because we can not, no matter what, know whether they do or do not have feelings just as we cannot know for sure that we aren't dreaming. But this life has the function of being reality, and that concept; the functional effect of things, is all that I believe that we can be sure of.
And I think that math is very understandable to most people and across most cultures. But there is a tribe that cannot count past the number 3. Not only that, they cannot conceive of anything beyond the number three. The concept of "4" has been tried time and time again to be explained to them by many different methods, but no matter what has been tried, anything after 3 is conceptualized as "many".
|
Like stories about magic? Read Cheeky Demons!
Join Funender Gardens!
| Arc wrote: |
| nah we just know that you are a warm loving person filled with sweet things and happynessXD |
| MoA wrote: |
I've said it once before, and I'll say it again, the world really needs more people like you. |
My FFT chars:
Rikki- Thief
Luna- Ninja
Crazed- Yllw Chocobo
Arc- Blk Chocobo |
| |
|
|
| Starry-chan |
|
Posted:
Sun Dec 04, 2011 5:13 am |
Ultima Weapon
Age: 12
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 12,246
Liked Posts: 8
Karma: 1189
Location: Darkness...
Usergroups:
A World of Cultures
In Review
Kindness Counts
9407727 Gil
Items
more...
|
|
That was not what I was asking. I'm asking at what point in the complexity scale of living organisms do they begin to have "feelings"?
|
Quote of the day: "Evolution has ZERO evidence, otherwise I would have found it by now."
-MalakaiJ from youtube
Pure gold isn't it?
You are Stern the Destructor (星光の殲滅者): Polite, calm and logical...
...But nevertheless extremely dangerous! |
| |
|
|
| mgold07 |
|
Posted:
Sun Dec 04, 2011 7:08 am |
Ragnarok
Age: 17
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 6,891
Liked Posts: 0
Karma: 508
Usergroups:
Forever Night
Magazine Staff
Roleplayers
66458 Gil
| | | Class: | Wizard Knight | | Level: | 12 |
Items
more...
|
|
Once they begin to make concious thought perhaps they have feelings. But this merely means that anything with a brain will have feelings, which may very well be true. However, the concept of feelings is difficult to account for, we know that feelings are caused by chemicals within our brains but we don't know why this happens.
So I'd say when something has concious thought, and has a concept of the world around it. Things such as microbes are very doubtful to be in this category, as they merely rely entirely on instinct. They feed, they reproduce and they grow. They don't do it because they want to, but because they must.
|
[quote="Tmnzklan"]no why would i help mgold- we cant go five posts before starting to fight![/quote]
[quote="Wing"]sure, i'll bend them forward, hold a cup of tea and ask if they like today's weather while banging[/quote]
Le Awesomes <-, Many thanks
[url=http://www.anime-planet.com/users/mgold07]
Backloggery
http://mgold07.wordpress.com/
Hark...ejaculated. |
| |
|
|
| Starry-chan |
|
Posted:
Sun Dec 04, 2011 8:55 am |
Ultima Weapon
Age: 12
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 12,246
Liked Posts: 8
Karma: 1189
Location: Darkness...
Usergroups:
A World of Cultures
In Review
Kindness Counts
9407727 Gil
Items
more...
|
|
OK then....from the scale of a complex human brain to the collection of some nerve cells (ganglia), at what point in that does a living thing have feelings?
|
Quote of the day: "Evolution has ZERO evidence, otherwise I would have found it by now."
-MalakaiJ from youtube
Pure gold isn't it?
You are Stern the Destructor (星光の殲滅者): Polite, calm and logical...
...But nevertheless extremely dangerous! |
| |
|
|
| mgold07 |
|
Posted:
Sun Dec 04, 2011 9:53 am |
Ragnarok
Age: 17
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 6,891
Liked Posts: 0
Karma: 508
Usergroups:
Forever Night
Magazine Staff
Roleplayers
66458 Gil
| | | Class: | Wizard Knight | | Level: | 12 |
Items
more...
|
|
I'd say that anything as simple as an insect would have some degree of emotions. They may be simple things which don't particularly resemble human emotions, but I'd say that even insects can feel to some degree.
|
[quote="Tmnzklan"]no why would i help mgold- we cant go five posts before starting to fight![/quote]
[quote="Wing"]sure, i'll bend them forward, hold a cup of tea and ask if they like today's weather while banging[/quote]
Le Awesomes <-, Many thanks
[url=http://www.anime-planet.com/users/mgold07]
Backloggery
http://mgold07.wordpress.com/
Hark...ejaculated. |
| |
|
|
| pinataheart |
|
Posted:
Sun Dec 04, 2011 1:32 pm |
Ultima Weapon
Age: 22
Joined: 16 Apr 2006
Posts: 13,354
Liked Posts: 3
Karma: 965
Location: Funender Forums, best site in the world
Usergroups:
A World of Cultures
AWOL
Funender Garden
58569 Gil
Items
more...
|
|
| Starry-chan wrote: |
| That was not what I was asking. I'm asking at what point in the complexity scale of living organisms do they begin to have "feelings"? |
I understand that you weren't asking that but to ask that, there would have to be some fixed point. In my world view, there is no clear and fixed point for anything. I can answer it, maybe, if you were to ask me at what point I feel that living organisms have the function of having feelings and I can make an educated guess about when living organisms have the function of having feelings for people in general, but the question you asked, as you asked it, is incompatible with my world view.
|
Like stories about magic? Read Cheeky Demons!
Join Funender Gardens!
| Arc wrote: |
| nah we just know that you are a warm loving person filled with sweet things and happynessXD |
| MoA wrote: |
I've said it once before, and I'll say it again, the world really needs more people like you. |
My FFT chars:
Rikki- Thief
Luna- Ninja
Crazed- Yllw Chocobo
Arc- Blk Chocobo |
| |
|
|
| Starry-chan |
|
Posted:
Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:23 am |
Ultima Weapon
Age: 12
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 12,246
Liked Posts: 8
Karma: 1189
Location: Darkness...
Usergroups:
A World of Cultures
In Review
Kindness Counts
9407727 Gil
Items
more...
|
|
The axiom I followed to ask that question assumes that emotions are biological. Another is that there is a hierarchy of biological complexity.
|
Quote of the day: "Evolution has ZERO evidence, otherwise I would have found it by now."
-MalakaiJ from youtube
Pure gold isn't it?
You are Stern the Destructor (星光の殲滅者): Polite, calm and logical...
...But nevertheless extremely dangerous! |
| |
|
|
| pinataheart |
|
Posted:
Tue Dec 27, 2011 6:36 pm |
Ultima Weapon
Age: 22
Joined: 16 Apr 2006
Posts: 13,354
Liked Posts: 3
Karma: 965
Location: Funender Forums, best site in the world
Usergroups:
A World of Cultures
AWOL
Funender Garden
58569 Gil
Items
more...
|
|
| Starry-chan wrote: |
| The axiom I followed to ask that question assumes that emotions are biological. Another is that there is a hierarchy of biological complexity. |
I realize this and was questioning the validity of these very axioms.
But I will admit that, if one were to follow your axioms in the manner that you do, the complexities that I would most be able to consider "feelings" would start at what we biologically know indicates some level of awareness of their own emotions. What would be important would be their meta-cognitive or meta-emotative properties as indicated by biological capability to expressed by the complexity of their brain.
Still I say that the complexity of the brain is only one part of the picture here. By their brain's complexity, wolves would not quite fall into the category of being meta-cognitive or meta-emotative on a substantial level. Yet their social behavior indicates much more internal complexity than people give animals credit to achieve.
|
Like stories about magic? Read Cheeky Demons!
Join Funender Gardens!
| Arc wrote: |
| nah we just know that you are a warm loving person filled with sweet things and happynessXD |
| MoA wrote: |
I've said it once before, and I'll say it again, the world really needs more people like you. |
My FFT chars:
Rikki- Thief
Luna- Ninja
Crazed- Yllw Chocobo
Arc- Blk Chocobo |
| |
|
|
| |
